Liigan ulkomaalaispelaajat 2010

[Tsei Tsei]

I'm not at all sure that Finnish players offer any kind of value for money. If your scouting is shit then your scouting is shit, it doesn't magically improve because the player is from nowheremäki, Karelia.

Usually Finnish players have good value, because you don't necessarily have to get them apartments etc. Some of them can be even semipros. And usually Finnish players have a good work ethic. That's why they are easy to coach for Finnish coaches. However it is clear, that Finnish players also lack many things and for skilled players and for those who are good in set pieces you have to pay a lot, since we don't exactly have a great deal of these kind of players.

[TampereOwl]

IFK is the only good example of a team, that playes well with a non-so-Finnish team. But most of their guys come from Sweden (Swedish guys and Dujilo, Gashi..). They have scouting skills and resources and connections, that most of the other teams don't have.

Inter Turku won the cup with four foreign players in the starting lineup.

Tsei Tsei: that's a very good point. As I see it, clubs should be using their resources to give younger Finnish players a chance, and they are very cheap and very hungry. It's those in their mid to late 20s and early 30s who know they will never 'make it' abroad and start to lose a little bit of interest and desire, I can't understand those decisions. Like the dropping of Ruuth for Saarinen in TamU's early season fuckups - it made no sense on any level when Ruuth was playing so well. You mentioned James - he could have been a fantastic investment for TamU, as a young quality player who may well be at the World Cup next year, but it wasn't to be. I would not put all the blame on the player for that, though.

[V]

I'm not at all sure that Finnish players offer any kind of value for money. If your scouting is shit then your scouting is shit, it doesn't magically improve because the player is from nowheremäki, Karelia.

In Finland, we have quite a good chance to scout Finnish players, but not youngsters from abroad. And Finnish youngsters are more willing to play in Finland and are cheaper, because they can e.g. study, work or live with their parents.

werner, ei ne paskat pelaajat ole yleensä kalliita. Näitähän hankitaan, kun ei ole varaa kotimaisiin laatupelaajiin tai kotimaiset laatupelaajat eivät riitä.

Teoriassa noin. Oikeastihan tilanne menee niin, että suomalaisia sekundapelaajia ei uskalleta käyttää, koska heidän taso tiedetään, joten ulkomailta hankitaan kavereita, jotka voisivat olla parempia (koska ovat ulkolaisia ja kalliimpia, eikä niitä tunneta). Karu totuus liian suuressa osassa tapauksista on se, että pelaaja on ihan yhtä paska kuin se suomalainen verrokki, mutta kalliimpi.

Itsekin olen TampereOwlin kanssa ehdottoman samaa mieltä siitä, että Suomen liigan tasoa kehitettäisiin parhaiten hankkimalla tasokkaita ulkomaalaisvahvistuksia. Mutta ihan yhtä realistista olisi ehdottaa, että mitä jos vaan kaikki suomalaiset rupeaisivat yhtäkkiä tasokkaammiksi pelaajiksi. Eli toiveita ja todellisuutta ei kannata sekoittaa.

Inter Turku won the cup with four foreign players in the starting lineup.

And in Veikkausliiga games (2010) they had (in average) 4.27 foreign players in starting eleven. In average 2-3 quality foreigners per club could be good and affordable amount as I mentioned before. If we have more, we are only wasting money, unless the basics of the whole scouting system and economy are changed.

[TampereOwl]

If we have more, we are only wasting money, unless the basics of the whole scouting system and economy are changed.

It should be assumed that everything I post is predicated on this needing to happen as soon as possible.


Glad to see you've upped the quota from 10 in total to somewhere around 30, over the course of the thread, though....

[eijax]

Mielestäni scouttaus ulkomailtakin on mahdollista. Onhan tässä onnistunut esimerkiksi OPS, joka on tuonut laadukkaita ulkomaanapuja reiluun hintaan. Heidän mukaan ottaminen on taas kehittänyt paikallisia lupauksia paremmaksi, esimerkkinä vaikkapa nuorten maajoukkueen Matias Juntunen. Skouttaus toki maksaa ja verkostoituminen vaatii suhteita. On kuitenkin täysin mahdollista myös Suomessa. Luulen, että sijoitus kannattaa ja siitä hyötyy niin seurajoukkue kuin suomalainen juniorityö.

[V]

Glad to see you've upped the quota from 10 in total to somewhere around 30, over the course of the thread, though....

I did it in my first post (much more than 10 meant of course 25-35..):

37 is actually too much for our budgets. We don't have enough money to get here much more than 10 players who are actually better than Finns. The good or even the average guys are just too expensive. Finns/local guys can study (or work) and/or live with their parents and hence we get better and cheaper players... VPS and Honka are good examples of teams that have only 1-2 foreigners and still survive better than their opponents, who are getting/buying full load of shit from abroad.
 
Last season the better placed teams had (in average) less foreigners in squad than teams in the bottom half of the league. Probably 2-3 good quality foreigners per team would be a good and affordable amount (-> total 25-35 in the league). More Wayne Browns here, please .

This is totally OT, because this is data from last season, but anyway. Here is the average amount of foreigners/Finns in starting elevens during 2009 season:

Team	Foreign	Finnish
VPS	0.58	10.42
Honka	0.73	10.27
Haka	0.77	10.23
TamU	1.00	10.00
Jaro	1.12	9.88
Lahti	1.92	9.08
JJK	2.46	8.54
KuPS	2.50	8.50
HJK	2.58	8.42
MYPA	2.62	8.38
TPS	2.85	8.15
Inter	4.27	6.73
IFK	5.69	5.31
RoPS	7.50	3.50
Average	2.61	8.39

[Rafu]

Mohamed Fofana, FC Lahti, kk, Guinea (2010).

[janne#1]

This is totally OT, because this is data from last season, but anyway. Here is the average amount of foreigners/Finns in starting elevens during 2009 season:

Team	Foreign	Finnish
HJK	2.58	8.42

Still in OT. Did you count Popovits and Fowler as foreigners?

[TampereOwl]

Still in OT. Did you count Popovits and Fowler as foreigners?

I would count them, I think - if you move to finland to play football, your passport does not change much. Lots of foreigners become naturalised, assimilated, start families here and behave a little bit more like Finns in that respect. Rafinha's move to HJK seems to be about his family as much as money, contract length and chances of success.

[V]

Still in OT. Did you count Popovits and Fowler as foreigners?

Yes, because they came here as foreigners. Good examples of great scouting .

[Johtaja Calu]

FC Lahti

kk Mohamed Fofana, Guinea (2010)

[Zulo]

I would count them, I think - if you move to finland to play football, your passport does not change much. Lots of foreigners become naturalised, assimilated, start families here and behave a little bit more like Finns in that respect. Rafinha's move to HJK seems to be about his family as much as money, contract length and chances of success.

OT. I hope in 20 years there would be 5 young Rafinhas running all over the pitch and making their name in Finnish football with Finnish passports

[Andreas]

FF Jaro

h Papa Niang, Senegal (2010)

[Mikaeli]

OT. I hope in 20 years there would be 5 young Rafinhas running all over the pitch and making their name in Finnish football with Finnish passports

Id take one Nure any given Sunday!

[janne#1]

Lots of foreigners become naturalised, assimilated, start families here and behave a little bit more like Finns in that respect.

Just curioisty. What is the situation if Marco Parnela who never has lived in Finland comes to play here? Should you say in that case that he is Italian?

When remarkable part of Cheyne Fowler's ancestors are Finns and he had been Finnish citizen several years, it's very difficult to thim him as South African. Eremenko Sr. and Popovits are little bit more complicated but still they have lived almost half of their lives in Finland.

[Andreas]

AC Oulu

h Frank Jonke, Kanada, 2010

[RS4X]

Laittaakapas omia kokoonpano ehdotuksia minkälaisen kentällisen kokoaisitte tulevista ulkomaalaispelaajista. Samalla voitte katsoa että onko pelaajien pelipaikat oikein merkitty listaan.

Oma valintani olisi seuraava 3-4-3 taktiikalla

                   Bantamoi
  Gustavsson - Balogh - Dujilon
Simunac - Medo - Savage - Rafinha
       Votinov - Rafael - Wusu

[Tozsér]

                        Szerovay
Medo     Gustavsson       Dujilo        Olofsson
                           Cleaver
Rafinha                                               Bah
                                Rafael
              Wusu                      Ricketts


Penkillä: Rodrigues, Balogh, Simunac, Ady, Jonke, Yobe, Yobe

[Rafu]

                       Szerovay
Medo     Gustavsson       Dujilo        Olofsson
                           Cleaver
Rafinha                                               Bah
                                Rafael
              Wusu                      Ricketts


Penkillä: Rodrigues, Balogh, Simunac, Ady, Jonke, Yobe, Yobe

Kyllä Fofana kuuluisi VÄHINTÄÄN penkille.

[Velmu]

Hiukan ot, mutta eikös Bantamoi ja Medo voisi pikku hiljaa hakea jo suomen kansalaisuuttakin?

Varmasti löytyisi ottajia ulkomailta, kun saisivat eu-passin...

[Tozsér]

Hiukan ot, mutta eikös Bantamoi ja Medo voisi pikku hiljaa hakea jo suomen kansalaisuuttakin?

Varmasti löytyisi ottajia ulkomailta, kun saisivat eu-passin...

Lainaus Wikipediasta: "Kansalaisuutta ei kuitenkaan missään tapauksessa myönnetä
-jos kansalaisuutta haetaan vain kansalaisuudesta seuraavan edun saamiseksi ilman, että hakija aikoisi asettua Suomeen"
Vaikuttaisiko tuo Medoon ja Bantamoihin, mene ja tiedä.

[Rikkiviisas]

Haka-otsikossa tuli mieleen, että onko joku laskenut tai laskeeko joku tilastofriikki missä mestari- tai jopa mitalijoukkueiden ulkomaalaisten pelaajien määrän?

Herkulliseksi tilaston tekisi vielä vertailu siihen, että mikä on ollut putoajan/putoajien ulkomaalaisuusaste.
Nythän mantrana esitetään, että suomalaisten seurojen pelaajatarkkailu ei toimi ja ulkomaalaiset ovat arpoja, joten olisi kiva saada ihan numeroita taustalle tulkittavaksi.

Itseltä puuttuu aineistoa ja osaamista

[V]

Haka-otsikossa tuli mieleen, että onko joku laskenut tai laskeeko joku tilastofriikki missä mestari- tai jopa mitalijoukkueiden ulkomaalaisten pelaajien määrän?

Ei nyt juuri jaksa, mutta alla läheltä liippaavaa tilastoa kaudelta 2009:

Liigan keskiarvo: 5,2 ulkomaalaista/joukkue

Liigan 3 parasta: 3,0 ulkomaalaista/joukkue
Liigan 8 parasta: 4,3 ulkomaalaista/joukkue
Liigan 6 huonointa: 6,5 ulkomaalaista/joukkue
Liigan 3 huonointa: 8,3 ulkomaalaista/joukkue

[TampereOwl]

Just curioisty. What is the situation if Marco Parnela who never has lived in Finland comes to play here? Should you say in that case that he is Italian?

When remarkable part of Cheyne Fowler's ancestors are Finns and he had been Finnish citizen several years, it's very difficult to thim him as South African. Eremenko Sr. and Popovits are little bit more complicated but still they have lived almost half of their lives in Finland.

just seen this.....

Only those players can answer that really. It's not for me to say what someone else's nationality is (I could theoretically get a Finnish passport this June, but if I did I doubt I'd feel like, or be treated like, a Finn), but for footballing purposes I guess where he plays aged 15-20 is crucial. So maybe Fowler's Finnish, but Parnela almost certainly isn't. Owen hargreaves cannot be said to be a product of English football, at least not with a straight face, and if we're getting away from that question into realms of national identity and 'Finnishness', then I guess I don't have much to add.

Werner - that's naughty. It would be more interesting to start referencing wage bill/league placing/number of foreigners, and see whether Finns or foreigners in Veikkausliiga are better value.

[Arpin Lusène]

When comparing wages you have to remember that a foreign player gets everything for free. Housing, food etc. I'm not sure if all of these benefits are included in the tax data.